Curse

Martin Alvito · Nov 11, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The high end market still works the way it should.
It excludes players that do not have enough money to participate in it.

The only difference is how the money that is used to participate in that market is earned. And that is irrelevant to the market itself.

But it's extremely relevant to the game. That inflation has put high-end items out of reach of anyone without huge amounts of time to invest. The barrier to entry is too large and growing larger. If the price of the mini you want is 2000 ectos initially and inflates at a stack a month, you'd need to farm 500 ectos each month for eight months to afford it. At six ectos per hour...that's a part time job. And forget about farming or dungeon running your way into a really scarce mini. There aren't enough hours in the day.

Long story short, you cannot impact your wealth by playing the game. People quit over that, because they realize they can't attain new goals. Worse, it's the skilled players that quit. The grinders that are made of time are the ones that stick around...but almost all of them are terrible at the game because they lack the time pressures that compel efficiency.

Now, inflation is great for the power traders that already have that wealth. But is that a crowd you really want to be rewarding? Sure, the high end undedicated minis I own just keep getting more valuable. But I'd cheerfully trade that for an incentive to actually play the game.

Tom Swift · Nov 11, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

But it's extremely relevant to the game. That inflation has put high-end items out of reach of anyone without huge amounts of time to invest.

What high end items?

Armor? - because it's actual gold cost is set and the materials are more plentiful on account of farming, it's actually cheaper than ever. Even the dyes and runes have dropped dramatically. Black is currently 8k but I remember when it ran 11k easy. Ectos are going up a bit at the moment because there are fewer of them and people are hoarding what they have but even they are not out of reach by any means.

Weapons? Very few are worth much any more and even they are dropping in price as the market floods from farmers. Even BDS and Obsidian edge will eventually fill the available market and drop drastically in price. Armbrace is the only weapon I have seen rise in value and that has only been quite recently.

Mini pets? The vast majority are worth nothing. Only the very high end rare ones are escalating in price and that has nothing to do with general inflation. the only thing that has to do with is that ANet decided to turn the game into pokemon and introduced a few rare mines on a one time only or limited basis. Since everything else in the game is dropping, it is obvious that the inflation on these is due to lack of supply, not increase in wealth.

With the exception of a few minis and armbraces I have seen absolutely no inflation in the last year.

Martin Alvito · Nov 11, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

q7s/q8s/unconditionals (if you can find the latter)

Weapons that still drop are for chumps. Supply is always increasing, so of course the price goes down in an SF world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

Since everything else in the game is dropping, it is obvious that the inflation on these is due to lack of supply, not increase in wealth.

/facepalm

Tastyy · Nov 11, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

So by introducing the Dhuum Soldiers, Anet has eliminated most farming builds. You might pass on to Chaos plains, but only to find out you ought to be EXTRA careful since theres a lot of dhuum skeletons there.

upier · Nov 11, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

But it's extremely relevant to the game. That inflation has put high-end items out of reach of anyone without huge amounts of time to invest. The barrier to entry is too large and growing larger. If the price of the mini you want is 2000 ectos initially and inflates at a stack a month, you'd need to farm 500 ectos each month for eight months to afford it. At six ectos per hour...that's a part time job. And forget about farming or dungeon running your way into a really scarce mini. There aren't enough hours in the day.

Long story short, you cannot impact your wealth by playing the game. People quit over that, because they realize they can't attain new goals. Worse, it's the skilled players that quit. The grinders that are made of time are the ones that stick around...but almost all of them are terrible at the game because they lack the time pressures that compel efficiency.

Now, inflation is great for the power traders that already have that wealth. But is that a crowd you really want to be rewarding? Sure, the high end undedicated minis I own just keep getting more valuable. But I'd cheerfully trade that for an incentive to actually play the game.

We are talking about items that exist in numbers of something like 50 each.
Unless you are among the richest people of the game, and by that I mean among the 100 or 1000 richest people in the game, those items becoming more expensive has absolutely no effect on you. Because you are too poor to buy them either way.
What it does on the other hand is drive the other prices down into the gutter enabling the poor masses to get their hands on certain goods. This allows these players to max out their HoMs, to become Gods, ... It gives the masses obtainable goals.

What you are suggesting is catering to these 100s of players instead of 10.000s of players.

own age myname · Nov 11, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

My guild does things with me, but not speed clears. Sorry you didn't understand that.

So, you can't take a few minutes out of your day and post something on your guild forums for a balanced UW group? (or ask an officer to have an event set up on the announcements, or if you're an officer you set it as an announcement).

Motivation.

Tastyy · Nov 11, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

So, you can't take a few minutes out of your day and post something on your guild forums for a balanced UW group? (or ask an officer to have an event set up on the announcements, or if you're an officer you set it as an announcement).

Motivation.

I wish I could cuss, because that way I'd REALLY express myself.

NOT.EVERYONE.HAS.A.GUILD.THAT.DOES.UW

Organizing is hard as it is. Making guild members sign up to forums, post, be active, etc, is even harder.

Take a look at the GWO forums. They're huge guilds, but the UW/FOW-run threads are not popular. People always want to do UW, but organizing it is a hassle.

Elitist.

Bryant Again · Nov 11, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

It's also kind of hard to find 7 other people to willingly gimp themselves.

Joe Fierce · Nov 11, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

WHAAAAA SF NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!

WHAAAAA SF GOT NERFED FOR UW!!

This is all I see. Stop crying. I like what I've seen with the "new" six hundred build that's currently emerging, but it's currently kindof off, it needs some work.

Quit trying to simulate izzy's job by saying this or that should or shouldn't be nerfed, punt the box over to the other side of the room, come up with something new, and become a god damned innovator for once, think of something new. Guild Wars hasn't gone to shite, it's aged beautifully, it's players have gone to shite, I remember the days in which a nerf meant thinking of a new way to do it, not crying, and hell, sometimes we even came up with new ways of doing it even before t'was nerfed. Learn from your predecessors.

twelve characters.

Tastyy · Nov 11, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's also kind of hard to find 7 other people to willingly gimp themselves.

That's why I think they shouldn't nerf SF. They can nerf UW. I don't mind my soloing being extended. Getting 7 people to organize is tough. I've been in some UW runs this week with my guild. It was fun. But then after a run, a guy leaves. We invite another, we wipe, 2 people leave.

It's happened to me all the time. Especially in missions. We were doing so well, we wipe, everyone leaves and continues searching for parties.
What the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO

toocooltang · Nov 11, 2009, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What it does on the other hand is drive the other prices down into the gutter enabling the poor masses to get their hands on certain goods. This allows these players to max out their HoMs, to become Gods, ... It gives the masses obtainable goals.

1. Not everyone is meant to have gods, sorry. The gods title is not that expensive or time consuming now considering the 600/smite clears for vanquishing kzk/luxon.

2. Assuming you play the game and do the missions/dungeons/vanquishes without paying a runner. You can easily make enough money PLAYING THE GAME to buy one of the following sweet/party/drunk.

The reason why most people find gods so expensive is they are to lazy to do survior title, to lazy to max kuzk and luxon, and to lazy to figure out how to do the missions dungeons and vanquishes themselves so they pay someone to do it for them which increases the cost exponetially.

BTW I have gods on a char and I never did a single UWSC, DOASC or any kinda gimmick build. Gimmicks are lame and are a poor subsitute for understanding the game, thus if all you can do for MONEY is UWSC because all you did was read wiki and watch a youtube video then you don't deserve gods.

ffs

Tastyy · Nov 11, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

BTW I have gods on a char and I never did a single UWSC, DOASC or any kinda gimmick build. Gimmicks are lame and are a poor subsitute for understanding the game, thus if all you can do for MONEY is UWSC because all you did was read wiki and watch a youtube video then you don't deserve gods.

Then tell us how you got it.

toocooltang · Nov 11, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I didnt have surv because my chars was made before that was a tittle (2005 :*() I worked my way up to r9 kzk then they nerfed HFFF(so slow) so I just switched to vanquishing H/H. I farmed 50 char carvings a day for the collectors for halloween (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hall...008#Collectors) I did all the PVE stuff on my own or with friends, when did this stuff I picked up drops and never left a zone without a full bag which I sold to the merch. I saved my money and had enough money to buy sweet, had enough char carvings for drunk, I needed some money to finish it off.

I was also lucky enough to find a good group of friends ingame that did DOA. I meet these people when ursan was all the craze, they helped me realize ursan was going to be nerfed soon and distanced myself from those guilds/play styles using ursan. So once the ursan nerf happend I was well established in a great guild that had a good team build to farm DOA. Since this was post ursan nerf pre DOASC I made a good amount off armbraces that allowed me to buy party.

Joe Fierce · Nov 11, 2009, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

I didnt have surv because my chars was made before that was a tittle (2005 :*() I worked my way up to r9 kzk then they nerfed HFFF(so slow) so I just switched to vanquishing H/H. I farmed 50 char carvings a day for the collectors for halloween (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hall...008#Collectors) I did all the PVE stuff on my own or with friends, when did this stuff I picked up drops and never left a zone without a full bag which I sold to the merch. I saved my money and had enough money to buy sweet, had enough char carvings for drunk, I needed some money to finish it off.

I was also lucky enough to find a good group of friends ingame that did DOA. I meet these people when ursan was all the craze, they helped me realize ursan was going to be nerfed soon and distanced myself from those guilds/play styles using ursan. So once the ursan nerf happend I was well established in a great guild that had a good team build to farm DOA. Since this was post ursan nerf pre DOASC I made a good amount off armbraces that allowed me to buy party.

We did do alot of doa at that time.

reaper with no name · Nov 12, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The players that strive to play the most efficient build do not oppose SF.
It would be insane to do so.

If the goal on the other hand is to have "fun" then there is no problem with not running SF. The game isn't balanced around SF, meaning that content would only be doable with SF, which means you can run things that you find fun.

Exactly. And that's the problem. When one build is always the most efficient way to do everything, then there's no reason to use anything else. They are, for all intents and purposes, not options unless you intentionally choose to run a crappy build. And most people prefer to run builds that (they think) don't suck. With SF around, everything that isn't SF sucks. So, basically, all of us who aren't assassins are being forced to run builds that suck. We are not given a choice. It's either play a crappy build, or don't play that class, because anything a warrior or necromancer could possibly play is absolute crap compared to SF.

Tastyy · Nov 12, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Exactly. And that's the problem. When one build is always the most efficient way to do everything, then there's no reason to use anything else. They are, for all intents and purposes, not options unless you intentionally choose to run a crappy build. And most people prefer to run builds that (they think) don't suck. With SF around, everything that isn't SF sucks. So, basically, all of us who aren't assassins are being forced to run builds that suck. We are not given a choice. It's either play a crappy build, or don't play that class, because anything a warrior or necromancer could possibly play is absolute crap compared to SF.

But that's false and incorrect. Theres many, many builds that work just as well as SF. SS (spiteful), SS (spirit), smite, 600, UWSC, FOWSC, 55, Discord Way, Spoil Victor, Sliver Armor, 330hp, raptor, barrage..

I mean it just seems that people are mad because they either feel that they only have to play as SF to efficient or just mad that people are having fun on the cost of playing gimmick builds.

I find it sad how people want to nerf everything that seems easy for them. For me, it was extremely hard to make money until I found out about SF. It lasted shortly, but the time I spent farming solo and with friends, was probably my best time in Guild Wars.

One ought to remember that farming is what most people do now a days. If you've made a new character and tried doing missions with other people (or from PUGs for that matter) you KNOW it's not easy.

reaper with no name · Nov 12, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

I submit that anything you can do with 8 600 monks, you can do more easily with 8 SF sins.

You cannot compare builds like discordway or 330 with SF, any more than you can compare SF with a mending wammo. They're in different leagues altogether. The simple fact of the matter is, if you aren't running SF, you are running a crappy build.

Tastyy · Nov 12, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The simple fact of the matter is, if you aren't running SF, you are running a crappy build.

Shouldn't troll to prove your point.

Coney · Nov 12, 2009, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

Shouldn't troll to prove your point.

LOL shouldn't tell the truth - so gauche!!! It's already evident that the UWSC still consists of 7/8 assn permas.

Clueless DEVS either cant figure out how to remove enchants (many existing skills do exist), or to remove the OP *INVULNERABILITY* skill.

Martin Alvito · Nov 12, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

We are talking about items that exist in numbers of something like 50 each.

There are thousands of these items. Just add up the Yetis, Nagas and Onis in the game and you're nearly at three thousand miniatures. There are thousands of other q7s and expensive rare miniatures, to say nothing of all the q8s out there. Yes, some are dedicated and customized. But I'm willing to bet the proportion (except on the unconditionals) is lower than you think.

For every player that owns a truly scarce item in an online game, there are dozens working towards it. The impact of those items goes a lot further than you'd think. But make it pointless to even try, and many of those players will go find another game where their goals are attainable.

If you want to maintain an economy, currency needs to be destroyed about as fast as it's created. Capping the amount that can be traded at a ridiculously artificial level is also a mistake. You'd think that Diablo 2 designers would have learned from the past rather than repeating it.

But since they didn't, the rate at which players create ecto matters. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What you are suggesting is catering to these 100s of players instead of 10.000s of players.

Look, making accomplishments mean something isn't discriminating against the masses. Making certain content hard does a couple of nice things in an online game. First of all, people get a real sense of accomplishment when they actually manage to complete a piece of difficult content. Second, different people with different talents can take pride in having accomplished different things. You're not entitled to be able to complete the entire game, or complete it on the highest difficulty setting, just because you bought it. How many Civ 4 players ever beat it on Deity? Five percent? Ten at most?

So why are the masses entitled to GWAMM or a full Hall of Monuments? That's what you're arguing, whether you realize it or not. If you aren't skilled enough to come up with a unique way to make in-game cash in a hurry, it should take you forever to get your consumables titles and buy your HoM gear. Why should lame Internet copycatting get rewarded?

The "catering to the masses" you promote is a sure recipe for a grind-filled disaster of an online game that can't sustain a community. People come in, grind, finish the grind "content" or just get bored with it, and leave. GWAMM impresses no one because a G11 keyboard could practically do it. It isn't going to impress anyone in GW2, either.

If you want to maintain a community, you either need new content or you need to make the content engaging enough to continue to challenge players in fresh ways. The only way to accomplish the latter is to make areas difficult and also make those areas require different approaches, so that players constantly have to learn new tricks.

To put it another way: why give players a thousand skills if less than two dozen dominate almost every area of the game?